The fear of a healthy America…

There is a great discussion going on on the muchedumbre forum..

“Fear here… I got fear here… 1 trillion dollars… get your fear…

sorry, 900 billion… like any of us really know the difference…

So, is Obama simply repeating the mistakes of Bush II by selling important things to the American people with fear?

fear here, fear now.. we must stop it.

Well, we must stop it when it is President Obama doing the mongering, when it is a Democrat’s agenda, when it is an issue that 70% of the country’s population want.

We are being led to believe that the ‘fear’ the President it ‘mongering’ on the rise of insurance prices, the crippling effect that the uninsured have on the medical system, and the eventual crash of medicare/medicaid  is just fanciful and over-the-top unnecessary rhetoric. But this isn’t about the country, this isn’t about helping the 70% majority get what they are begging for,the Republican’s  only goal here is to stop Obama by ending his hope of healthcare for everyone. The idea behind  stopping the healthcare reform the President is asking for is that it will  bring his popularity down enough for Republicans to  hope for a chance to win a majority of congressional elections is 2010. This isn’t about you or me to the Republicans, this is about beating Obama and winning congressional seats. Just ask Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK). He isn’t afraid to admit the Republican agenda.

“When you tell people that the mortality rate in Canada is 25% higher for breast cancer, 18% higher for prostate cancer, you know, they say why in the world would we emulate a system like that?”

Of course they are telling them a lie, because that is not the system we are trying to emulate.. but what good is a little truth when your goal is fear. Why bother with the truth when the  the mortality rate for mortality is 3% higher in the United States than Canada? Because then, you lose your argument all together.

This idea of pretending that our healthcare system would suffer or the bonus-cuts the poor and destitute health insurance CEO’s would have to endure are not the issue, is ridiculous. The issue is to do what it takes to win at all costs.

“I just hope the President keeps talking about it, keeps trying to rush it through. We can stall it. And that’s going to be a huge gain for those of us who want to turn this thing over in the 2010 election.”Sen. James Inhofe


The majority of us who support a public plan and are willing to pay for it, are sadly not as important as those who donate millions to coffers of our elected officials both Democrat and Republican. Oddly enough, the ones taking the most money from Phamra and Big Insurance are the one blocking reform by calling for bi-partisanship. Which in this case means a bill so watered down and useless that it will do more harm than good. And yet to call them on this, to explain the immediate need for reform, to try and give a democracy what it’s demanding.. is to be out there ‘fear mongering’ and scaring the public and this just isn’t to be born!

We had to wire-tap our own citizens for fear that the terrorists were  making covert plans over the wires.

We had to torture  subjects who were captured for fear that they might  know something. In order to do that though, we had to change the wording of strict Geneva convention guidelines to change these POW’s into ‘enemy combatant’ for fear that the laws may protect them.

We had to detain  combatants  in secret holding facilities all over the world for fear that they would escape or worse, join together and become a ‘super-terrorist cell’.

We could not try these combatants  in our own courts on our own soil for fear that they would  get off and be released into the population and begin collaborating with one another on another attack.

We could not house these combatants in our own maximum security prison system for fear that they may do what no one else has done, and escape.. or for fear that they would join in with the other extremely dangerous inmates housed with them and created new terrorists  networks.

We were even told to vote for the Republicans because they tried  to make us fear that they were the only one capable of keeping us safe in these uncertain times.

It’s telling that when these issue were brought up and the fear mongering was pointed at as an unnecessary tactic, he reply from the same people complaining about the supposed fear mongering President Obama is spreading, was

“So the Prez tells you stuff that you don’t like and don’t want to hear, and for his trouble of actually treating you like an adult and not sugar coating it, you call it “fear mongering.”

or

It’s legitimate and warrants some extra consideration.

That’s almost as “fair” as the people deciding the fate of the health reform being recipients of millions of dollars from the insurance companies… but not quite.

The scary idea that some Republicans are trying to make into some kind of truth, that once this reform is enacted, our elderly will be put out to pasture, is some of the most ridiculous and preposterous yet to be voiced in this debate. In country where a doctor is criminally punished for aiding terminal patients with only hours to live in excruciating pain, it’s asinine to believe that we would all of a sudden kill off an entire segment of our population. But fear is what the Republicans peddle to get their way, even if their way goes against what 72% of the population and 50% of their constituents are asking for.

The scariest part of all.. is that we and the Democrats in Congress will let them get away with it.

The only thing there is to fear here is the money Republicans and some Democrats will lose from the Health sector if they don’t get out and pimp for them now.

Oh…and to the Republicans who complain that bureaucrats should not be involved in the decisions between a doctor and patient, first I ask, is the  17 year old high school student working after school and weekends at the insurance call center denying  the care your physician is asking for now, doing that job any better?.. and then I say to those crying a whoa is me over politicians not being a deciding factor in the doctor/patient conversation.. Thank You for joining the ‘Pro-choice’ movement, the ‘Pro-medicinal marijuana’ movement and the ‘pro-assisted suicide’ movement, can we count on your support in 2010?



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20 responses to “The fear of a healthy America…

  • lil mike

    Still blaming Republicans for your party’s inability to get their shit together? Ha! I guess it’s better to have a scapegoat to blame than the real enemy: Your own party. And thank goodness for them! The Republicans have no chance to stop even the most radical of Obama’s schemes unless there were plenty of Democrats not willing to go along too.

    Oh you should try updating your polling. Polls are just a snapshot, so you might want to get a more recent one, like this one:

    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/july_2009/53_now_oppose_congressional_health_care_reform

    53% oppose this so called “health reform.” But it’s just a snap shot. Think of what it will be by the time the summer recess is over? Something similar happened with Hillary’s plan too. When Clinton introduced the idea, it was well over 70% approval. But when people figured out how expensive their new “free” healthcare was they started to lose interest. And when people were faced with trading in their HMOs, which they didn’t like, for a Hillary HMO which was more restrictive than a private sector one, again, it was a no brainer to dump the idea.

    A similar trend is happening now. The concept, first introduced, is exciting and popular, but the devil is always in the details and once again, they are turning out to be a worse alternative than what most people have. The longer we deliberate and study, the more likely the bill will be weakened. So by all means, let’s deliberate!

    I confess, I don’t understand your statistics. “the mortality rate for mortality is 3% higher in the United States than Canada.” What does that mean? I figured the mortality rate was 100% regardless of what country you are in. But I followed your links and it turns out it’s really referring to life expectancy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_CIA_World_Factbook_.282008_estimates.29

    Canada’s is 80.34 and the US is 78.06. So to follow your argument, the healthcare we want to emulate should be Macau, which, at number one is 84.38. Since Macau is part of the Peoples Republic of China, that means, yes, you really do want socialized medicine! Obviously what works in Macau is not working on the Mainland (72.88). Of course, on the other hand, Puerto Rico (78.54) is higher than our mainland. Maybe we should figure out what they are doing right in Puerto Rico.

    So statistics are funny things. Our life expectancy is lower than a lot of European countries with socialized healthcare, but when you talk about statistics that are more fully reflective of the healthcare system, we do pretty good..

    The country with the highest survival rates for breast and prostate cancer is the United States.

    http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20080716/cancer-survival-rates-vary-by-country

    Colon cancer, yep the United States.

    http://coloncancer.about.com/od/stagesandsurvivalrate1/a/ColonCancerSurv.htm

    We have more people on statin drugs, less wait time to see a specialist than in the UK and Canada, higher percentage of preventative screening, higher satisfaction levels than people in Canada, greater access to high tech diagnostic tools, and on and on blabbidy blabidy…

    But people in other countries do have the patriotic thrill that the same people who deliver their mail also deliver their health care. That is a delight that few in this country think about unless they are in the VA system or get primary care from a Public Health Clinic. Imagine what we are missing!

  • ekg

    The country with the highest survival rates for breast and prostate cancer is the United States.

    IF you can pay for it.. and what are those numbers? the survival rate for the uninsured?

    Canada is not my example, it’s Inhofe’s example.. it’s your example.. it’s every (R)’s scare tactic example.

    of course the polling will go up and down.. b/c you guys stand there at the town meetings designed to inform and correct all the misinformation (Canada-Inhofe-highest survival rate-la-la-la) but instead of joining in civilly, you ppl stand there like neanderthals screaming any opposition down so they are unable to do anything but leave.. how childish is that? You can’t debate an issue on it’s merits so you lie about it and then terrorize a community until the leave out of frustration over your immature tactic.. seriously, sitting in the corner and throwing your own shit at the passersby is about all there is left in the (R) arsenal at this point..

    and I didn’t just blame the (R).. The (D) have almost just as much to blame to share in..

    the most curious aspect of it all is…. we are already paying so much more each year and getting so little in return.. those ‘unwashed’ you and yours can’t stand to ‘fund’ and give healthcare too… you already are paying for them..directly when they go to the ER and you pay for it and you pay it at an insane amount….and indirectly when they are sick at work and spread it to you and then you have to go to the doc and take time off from work… how do you get around that is what I want to know..

    I know how you get it around a Democrat.. just show them anything bloody or pretty and shiney and they lose all interest in whatever they are fighting for…but how do you justify it to yourself to know that you are paying it anyway and you already have a ‘middle man’ between you and your doctor deciding your fate and that middle man is probably outsourced to India or worse.. a 16 year old cheerleader working for a homecoming dress..

    talk about the kool-aid.. my Obama-aid wasn’t even that strong…

  • Howey

    LilMike,
    Quoting Rasmussen Polls again? I thought I called you out on that long ago?

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/200907070015

    What the hell good is a Rasmussen poll if they only poll Republicans?

    Kelly hit the nail on the head with this comment:

    “The idea behind stopping the healthcare reform the President is asking for is that it will bring his popularity down enough for Republicans to hope for a chance to win a majority of congressional elections is 2010. This isn’t about you or me to the Republicans, this is about beating Obama and winning congressional seats.”

    If the Republicans thought any other way regarding health care reform they would present their own plan or provide viable arguments against the proposal or work with the Democrats to produce a plan acceptable to all.

    Instead, they are intent on stuffing the pipes of progress with old worn out rags of obstinate refusal to see the need for reform.

    Your arguments would be marginally better if they weren’t the same ol’, same ol’ bullshit coming out of the Republican Party for decades.

  • ekg

    I’ve figured out the problem…

    http://asia.news.yahoo.com/ap/20090805/twl-us-health-care-overhaul-abortion-ef375f8.html

    Gov’t insurance would allow coverage for abortion

    and there you have it..

  • lil mike

    I thought both of you would have figured out a while ago I don’t give two shits about abortion. It’s a silly unimportant issue to me, although I guess you guys are strung out on the “social issues.” Do you actually think that if The Dems swore off adding abortion as a benefit that it would make the republicans and blue dogs change their minds on Obama’s health reform? Even one vote?

    So it’s not abortion.

    You say Canada is not your example, well what is? Macau? TennCare? Commonwealth Care? Really if you have a model, I would like to know what it is.

    If you don’t like Rassmussen, how about Quinnipiac?

    http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Daily-Reports/2009/August/05/QU-Poll.aspx

    Let me know when you find a poll that gives the results you want.

    Anyway, I know you guys want to make this all about Obama, but it’s really about a bad idea that I oppose and willing to debate on the merits. But you guys go on blaming the Republicans. It’s your fall back. Dear Leader has obviously moved beyond the Republicans:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090805/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_obama_health_care_overhaul

    Maybe you guys should too and debate the merits, not your hatred of the opposition (I get that already!).

  • ekg

    – President Barack Obama said Wednesday he’s determined to get an overhaul of the health care system before the end of the year and, if necessary, without bipartisan support.

    it’s about fucking time… thanks for the link..

    I’ve laid out the ‘merits’ so many times, in so many ways, on so many forums that I can no longer count them.. the only argument I get back is “I don’t want no socialized medicine here!”.. “I don’t want no gov’t telling me what I can get treated for”.. “don’t take my money and give it to the ppl who didn’t work for it”… and “Rationing.. OMG Rationing”..

    your side throws those out as stop sticks when they are not part of the agenda.. so time is spent arguing that which is not part of the agenda.. but the hope your side has is to keep the talking points on the defensive and then the movement will never go forward..

    seriously mike, how do you feel about the all the hissing and screaming and childish behavior the tea-baggers are pulling to stop real Q & A’s from going forward at any Democrats assembly.. do you think that it’s debating the merits when they stand there and interrupt the speaker by yelling ‘LIAR’ and chanting “JUST SAY NO” over everything he’s trying to say to the ppl who are actually there to find out what the deal is?

    before I put you actually in their corner, I’d like to know for sure if you believe this how you “debate the merits, not your hatred of the opposition”

  • Howey

    “…hissing and screaming and childish behavior the tea-baggers are pulling to stop real Q & A’s from going forward at any Democrats assembly”

    Why would LilMike have any problem with that? Hasn’t hissing, screaming, and childish behavior the Republican quid pro quo on the muche?

    See, Kelly…He doesn’t want to answer your question…he doesn’t want to answer my question…he only wants to, as you stated, throw out the stop sticks to cease the questions so he can have the floor and scream “Socialism”!

    I told you you could borrow this 🙂

    but I understand why you didn’t…he wouldn’t listen anyhow…

    Oh. I forgot. Isn’t it sweet to know that Sam is reading the VSJ?

  • Howey

    Sorry, ekg. I forgot to comment on this:

    – President Barack Obama said Wednesday he’s determined to get an overhaul of the health care system before the end of the year and, if necessary, without bipartisan support.

    Yes. It is about time. Haven’t I been saying that for about four months now? Even the Blue Dog Democrats had better sit up and take notice:

    http://www.openleft.com/diary/14503/some-blue-dogs-are-nervous-and-should-be

  • ekg

    Isn’t it sweet to know that Sam is reading the VSJ?

    LOL, you mean the abortion thing.. yeah, I thought that was funny.. 😉

  • lil mike

    Frankly, you have not laid out the merits, you’ve laid out a christmas list. “I want this and this and this… with no copay” You’re shown little interest in the actual nuts and bolts of the policy. The “details” that the devil is famous for being in.

    I care about those details, I’ve posted and blogged about them, and will continue to, hopefully until the demise of this terrible bill.

    What you’ve done, is not discuss the merits, but followed your political masters into attacking people who are actually showing up at Congressional townhalls, asking hard questions. Since townhalls are now your topic, I don’t think you can argue that you want to argue about the issues, just attack your opponents.

    Oh, I got a kick on Howey updating you on a story I first gave a link for! Way to stay on top of it Howey!

  • Howey

    Oh, I got a kick on Howey updating you on a story I first gave a link for! Way to stay on top of it Howey!

    Huh?

    “What you’ve done, is not discuss the merits, but followed your political masters into attacking people who are actually showing up at Congressional townhalls, asking hard questions”

    No shit?

    Like these people?????

    http://recessrally.com/

    Quote:

    Try listening to another intelligent woman (like ekg):

  • Howey

    Damn…I wanted to sneak this in there and forgot.

    It’s Sam’s brother – The “sensible one”. 🙂

  • ekg

    but followed your political masters into attacking people who are actually showing up at Congressional townhalls, asking hard questions

    you can’t seriously bury your head and believe that these ppl are only out there asking hard questions… they’re a cooter-hair away from rioting, they’re hanging congressmen in effigy in front od the ‘town hall’ and interrupting debate with “LIAR” and “JUST SAY NO” chants… that is how you want to debate issues? seriously? b/c you damn well know I can accommodate you on that…

  • lil mike

    I would think calling a Congressman a liar is well within acceptable discourse, since it’s almost always true.

    Meanwhile, I am discovering that the new meme is that people who oppose Obamacare are un-American. I heard it first yesterday on the news on, of course, MSNBC, the anchor (not a talking head or opinion guy!) said that anyone who opposed healthcare reform was un-American. Then today I found this:

    http://arkansasnews.com/2009/08/06/lincoln-disruptions-of-health-care-meetings-sad-un-american/

    Meanwhile, people saying just say no are worse than organized thugs beating up people? Here is a first person account:

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/seiu-thugs-teach-protestors-the-chicago-way-of-politics/

    And sadly, still not discussing the merits. So I guess that proves my point that you are following your political masters in trying to distract from the bills in consideration and instead make the issue all about the opponents.

  • ekg

    since you innocently explained away the “Liar” et al .. I take that to mean that this is the kind of debate you want.. and so I will do whatever I can to give it to you.. there will be no more discussion, only chants,single-word sentences.. and a few punches thrown in..

    who needs merit when I can just call you a liar..

  • Howey

    lol…I found this in Pajama Media’s “rules” for posting:

    5. Threats are treated seriously and reported to law enforcement.

    Kelly,

    Mike is well known for using the word “liar” to discredit people…especially when he’s being proven wrong. Look how many times he’s used the word in reference to me!

    As far as people disrupting a town hall on healthcare by yelling, banging on doors, screaming and other childish actions…I can only say it’like the kindergartner having a temper tantrum during class, these Republican tactics are look-at-me! attempts to derail discourse.

  • lil mike

    Howey, I always gave you the option of proving me wrong. I would always phrase it like this, ” Either you are a liar, or you didn’t read your own link [or whatever]. Which is it?” So it had to be one or the other. Why you preferred being known as a liar rather than just too lazy to read what you were posting I’ll never know.

    I see Kelly is going for the chant rather than the discussion. Sad, but at this point in the debate, she doesn’t really have a choice. All she has left is to sic the SEIU to beat up grannies (I didn’t even mention the hate crime!).

    Oh, and shocker, a Congressman lying about healthcare: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/03/russ-carnahan/carnahan-misquotes-cbo-about-cost-health-care-refo/

  • FaFa

    re:continue rambling conversation here:)

    OK, I’m curious and I suspect that Howey would be more than able and willing to catch me up. Who was banned from that other site(snicker)and what is the bloody report? It’s good to see you guys again too,I suppose even Mike ;).

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