Dear John…

JohnD from  www.armedrobbery.blogspot.com/ left this comment on my blog the other day..

Interesting post, EKG. It’s nice to see the left has found a new target for its vitriol now that George W. Bush is out of the picture.

“Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil.”

-Eric Hoffer, THE TRUE BELIEVER (1951)

I’m sure Palin-bashing is a pleasant distraction from President Obama’s serial failures. At the very least, hatred for her has provided the faithful with a rallying point.

I ignored his glossing over of President Obama being a target of vitriol himself and  asked him to enumerate Obama’s ‘serial failures’.  His reply was

Failure to get his health care bill and Waxman/Markey passed, even with total Democratic control of Congress; extraordinarily high unemployment rates; a rapidly rising deficit (over and above what was “inherited”); failure to close Guantanamo; take your pick. You can throw in failure to secure the Olympics for Chicago and declining poll numbers too.

as I started to answer him, I realized that these questions and answers deserve more space than the comments section of another blog-post. So I decided to answer them here….

First off, John.. I don’t know you. I don’t know if you are an extreme right winger, I don’t know if you are unbend-able in your opinions, I don’t know if you tow the party line no matter where it takes you. I know you are a friend of Mike’s, but I don’t know if you are as obstinately against looking at things from another perspective as he is or not. Because of this… uncertainty, I am answering with the assumption that you can see a different way of viewing things if shown, or explained.. I’m assuming that you are moderate and not hard-extreme like Mike.

No one likes to be blamed and no one likes their party to be blamed… but no one likes the other party to actually be at fault and share none of the blame and instead pile it all on one side. Of course I am going to place blame with the GOP on many issues, what I will wait to see from your reply to this is if you can see why I would blame them.. maybe not that you agree that they are to blame for alot of it, but maybe..hopefully.. you will admit that they do share, alot, in what is going on today. This is not a ‘well he did it first’ kind of blame. I believe I am laying out a valid argument. I hope to get more than “well you did it first” or the condescending  “LOL” and  “eyerolls” from you in your reply.

Now, on with the blog.

I agree with you John, it is Obama’s failure that Health reform has stagnated. He took it on faith that when Grassley, Snowe and other (R) said they were willing to work on a bi-partisan  solution,they meant it. The rest of us were hearing Grassley call it a ‘death panel’ and how people should fear Obama’s health reform and how he’d never vote for it when he was home on the weekends, but the ‘bubble’ Obama lives in, the same that all Presidents live in, prevented him from hearing that “weekend, rally the base” talk.

I don’t think it was until Lieberman’s extreme, blatant and almost joyful bragging of this ‘partisan ‘obstruction’ that Obama finally wised up. When Lieberman, who just a few years ago ran on his “medcare for 55” policy and was saying everywhere he could that this was the only solution he would support…immediately turned against it because, as he  said,  ‘well since liberals like my plan, I’m against it now’,  I think the President started seeing what he was up against, and what he was up against was illogical and unreasonable opposition. Do you atleast agree that Lieberman’s flip on his own idea and the reason he gave, prove this illogical and unreasonable position?

Even if you don’t think it was illogical or unreasonable, how can you fault President Obama for not getting things done in that kind of atmosphere? We aren’t talking about anything rational that can be explained or even expected. Republicans  and that includes Lieberman(I), were turning on their own plans, things they had campaigned on, the second after President Obama said “Hey, you know what.. your way does sound better so let’s include it”

Rising deficit

On Jan. 7, 2009, two weeks before Obama took office, the CBO reported the deficit was projected to be $1.2 trillion


At least  you gave blame to Bush for the 1.2 trillion of it..

The CBO – which provides the official estimates of the budgetary impact of legislation and events such as wars and recessions – cites the housing market collapse and the financial market turmoil as the main culprits for the shortfall. The federal government has tried to combat the crisis by so far committing $7.2 trillion in investments and loans primarily to financial institutions.

The current recession “will probably be the longest and the deepest since World War II,” the CBO said. The economic deterioration since September, which was the last time CBO made deficit projections, is the biggest contributor to a sharp decline in tax revenue projections. The CBO expects tax revenue in 2009 to fall by $166 billion, or 6.6%, from the previous year’s collection.

That revenue decline, in turn, is the biggest reason for the worsening outlook over the next decade, said Diane Lim Rogers, chief economist at the Concord Coalition, a deficit watchdog group. “The revenue effect is huge.”

and Obama does own his own share.. But we know that he does not ‘own’ the entire  problem. Why is it then that he is saddled with it? Where was this outcry of ‘budget deficits’ going back 3 years and more? How is this President Obama’s doing? He added to what was there yes, but what was the alternative when he stepped into the Oval on day one? You and I along with McCain and so so many others, know that had he won, McCain would have had to do the same exact things Obama did and would have had the same exact deficit today.. This really isn’t an Obama issue.. we all know this but since it’s going on under his watch-he gets the blame..Ok fine, but then we do have to put blame on the person who did create it.  No, this isn’t a “he did it so I can to” this is a ‘I really had nothing to do with all of it, so stop blaming it all on me argument and that is based in reality, not GOP partisan amnesia and fantasy.

When Obama stepped into office he had to deal with 2 unpaid wars, unpaid tax cuts, a wall street collapse, a housing market collapse, an infrastructure that had been neglected for 10 years. The Bush budget deficit projections never included the war price, when Obama put it into his, like it should have been done in the 1st place.. it didn’t help his numbers at all, but atleast it was honest. Unlike those who are supposed to give us ‘fair and balanced’ news..

During the April 3 edition of Fox News’ America’s Newsroom, on-screen text repeatedly falsely claimed that President Obama’s $3.6 trillion fiscal year 2010 budget is “4x bigger than Bush’s costliest plan.” However, President Bush submitted a $3.1 trillion budget for FY 2009. For FY 2008, Bush submitted a $2.9 trillion budget.

**Link to screen shot**

But Obama deserves the blame for all this hiding, collapse and the unpaid bills that all came due just a few short days before he came into office? Which turned out to be more than anyone.. anyone ever expected as more came to light in the coming days after his inauguration? If you truly feel this blames lays on President Obama’s lap, can you explain how you came to that decision?

High unemployment

Yes.. there is.. but you can’t look at 700,000 jobs lost per month when he got there to 11,000 in December 2009 and call that a failure.. and you can’t look at the numbers we were at, are still at now and expect it to change the next day.. or even the next year, not if you’re also not going to allow a larger stimulus bill/recovery act. So Obama was wrong on his optimism those 1st days that the unemployment numbers wouldn’t rise past a certain level, fine. But is he to blame that the numbers rose to that level or just to blame for not realizing just how bad things were a split second after he got there?

Is it the loss of jobs you blame him for or the bad prediction on jobs lost?

Like it, love it, hate it… when no one else is spending any money… the government has to. For the Government to also stop spending money is a catastrophe on a scale that we’ve never seen before. When no one, banks, businesses,people on the street are spending anything.. the government has to. It has to beg,borrow and yes, steal to spend money in order to get people spending money spending again. McCain,Romney,Huckabee.. Reagan.. all would have had no choice, given the exact same circumstance,  but to do the same. Or they would have watched while the country crumbled into oblivion the way Nero did. The ones like Mike, who argue that no, the government shouldn’t have spent a penny, can’t prove that their way would have been the right way or that we’d be any better off. They can’t prove it because there isn’t a time machine to take us back. So to me this argument is one of pure partisan fantasy. It cannot be proven and yet the GOP swears their way was the correct way. What’s worse is, they make 1/2 the country believe in this unprovable feary-tale. This is where the ‘faith’ and almost ‘religious like’ belief comes into play and it is the cornerstone of a lot of the GOP’s argument..

You can’t prove God doesn’t exist therefore he must be real.

They can’t prove no stimulus or Tarp would have worked better, therefore it must be true.

I call bullshit on both accounts… You want me to believe we shouldn’t have spent the money on the banks and on the recovery act, then prove it to me. Prove to me that not spending it would have worked better, that we would be in a better place, telling me  you are right only because you say so doesn’t work, I am not a believer in your religion I need more proof than that.

By the way, John.. Most of the “YOU” I use are not directed at YOU.. it is a general term used when speaking. I  hope you understand that.

Continuing on..

Failure to secure the Olympics?

Are you kidding? 1/2 the country didn’t want the Olympics

Forty-three percent (43%) of Americans say it’s a bad idea for President Obama to go overseas at this time to help Chicago make its final presentation to the International Olympic Committee

John Boehner blasted the President for trying to get them

“Listen I think it’s a great idea to promote Chicago but he’s the president of the United States, not the mayor of Chicago,” Boehner said. “And the problems we have here at home affect all Americans and that’s where his attention ought to be.”

and every night they were rewarded with their opinions by the likes of the GOP and Fox news telling them how bad it would crush us, how much money it would take, how horrible it would be. How dangerous Chicago is

Yes, Fox news is a factor when they have the massive viewer ratings they have, add them into Rush’s 20 million people a week rating and all of them chiming in on the evil that is the Olympics and why would we get it over a country literally begging to have to it because they want it?

But ok, Obama didn’t get the Olympics… that’s a failure on his part. But is that really something to hold against him? out of everything… is that an issue that truly pisses you off and just sticks in your craw?

Gitmo.

I’ve thought about this. Was Obama the naive one to think he could wave his ‘magic negro’ wand and close Gitmo? Or were we the naive ones to think he could wave his ‘magic negro’ wand and close Gitmo? I think it was both. I think a lot of us listened to his speeches and felt the inspiration and hope in that new era he talked about bringing. I think those of us who didn’t roll our eyes and didn’t decide that election night to do everything we possibly could to make his life hell and oppose everything.. everything he tried, actually believed this was the guy to change Rome back into the days of it’s purity,prosperity,glory and power. We (wrongly) assumed that Washington was also sick on the status quo, that Washington wanted to move on to a better place. That the country didn’t care if it was a Republican or Democrat, man or woman, black or white in office, we just wanted hope and change and not more of the same thing we had had for so long. We were all naive.

President Obama owns the failure to close Gitmo, but he doesn’t have sole ownership. Jesus, trust me I know it’s like a broken record to say the GOP also owns this since they stood in the way and did everything in the power to make sure 1/2 the country was against closing Gitmo and bringing the detainees here..but it is the truth. Through fear mongering and out right lies, GOP congressmen,governors,speakers,pundits went out to their communities , viewers, listeners and said “No way! Not in my yard, these guys are dangerous,these guys can’t be held in our prisons, these guys are super-powers that can only be controlled in Cuba” and we both know, hell we all know this is factually untrue. We are holding terrorists right now on our soil, we are holding terrorist right now in our prisons, we have been holding them for years. We are holding people who are worse! We, as Americans, have some of the most dangerous criminals in the world in our prisons right now. We have brain-eaters,baby-rapers,kidnappers,tortures,sex-slave traffickers ,abusers,bombers,pyromaniacs,serial killers, mass murders.. and we have extremely smart and devious   criminals like Madoff, Abramoff and hunderds of others. But somehow we’re ill equip to incarcerate men who have probably never had running water until they got to our prision camp?

That’s the most bogus of all feary-tales ever told. This idea that America is too weak, too incompetent and unable to imprison anyone is incredulous. If this is your belief, that we are just unable to rise to meet this ‘danger’ can you explain your reasoning to me, explain it without “Because they should be in a military tribunal”

All of this leads to a drop in polls.  You’ve seen the link to the numbers of Fox and just Rush, that doesn’t include Beck and all the other conservative radio. When  they are all, from top to bottom on the same line in the play book, all condemning,ridiculing, mocking, lying,inflating.. all giving out the worst of the wosrt bias,slanted partsian spin.. add that in with an entire section of Congress that doesn’t just stand in the way, but also makes up feary-tales and they believe it, polls are going to decline. How could they not?

And what about that anyway. Isn’t it normal for Presidential numbers to come back down to a reasonable level?

The other day I was reading the comments on a reputable news sources story about this Baradar capture, 75% of them were things like “Well, now that we can’t waterboard the guy the CIA will never get anything out him, Thanks Obama for ruining this country once again!” If the only tool in the CIA arsenal is waterboarding… then we really are fucked. Because it’s the opinion that begs the conclusion that the CIA has always and only water-boarded prisoners to get information and it was just the 2-3 years that they were legally allowed to that the were able to function at full capacity in the light of day. The point I’m making is, somehow people  think that CIA  doesn’t know how to get information from anyone without waterboarding them? Is this not the most insane thing you’ve ever seen? Why is this?Where did they get the idea that this was the only tool the CIA had? If  you can truthfully answer that, they you should be able to understand most, if not all of what it is I’m trying to show you.

Who is to blame for this? Not Obama.. but it is what he must fight against. The problem is you cannot argue with someone with that mindset. Their belief is again, religous like.. and cannot be changed,altered or enlightened.

Finally, I saved the best for last… “even with the democrats in control of congress”.. This is the most used response that I  see for pretty much everything. This idea that just because the Democrats had a filibuster  proof margine and didn’t use and some how it’s their fault is ridiculous . Listen, I’m going to tell you a secret that could get my liberal-card revoked ( 🙂 )  unlike the GOP, there are different levels of (D). We don’t all think with one brain, we don’t all follow the leader like a flock of birds, that is what makes us ‘liberal’ or the favorite slam of the GOP, ‘radical’ . We think for ourselves and decide accordingly and not according to party/leader doctrine. We are just not that  ‘religious-like’ in our faith and the following of party ‘dogma’. There are Democrats who don’t believe in abortion, there are some like me who believe in the death penalty and guns rights. To condem anyone.. any party  for not just towing the party-line is asinine  and to blindly follow the party-line used to be a bad thing.. but today, with the entire GOP saying “You can’t even get your party to all vote the same way and use that fillibuster proof majority” is so exquisitely  sad, but still not as sad  wanting and forcing any one party to act that way. I just can’t believe anyone, anywhere would want and encourage people to just blindly vote all (D) or all (R) depending on their party and then ridcule and condem anyone when they didn’t.

Besides any of that, this isn’t a one party system, the other side is supposed to help govern also!

This excuse…“Hey, you guys control congress.. it’s not our fault” and those using it are right though, the problem is the next thing they say to their audience,readers,constituents… and the next thing is invariably

“The Democrats need to listen to the country and work bi-partisanly”

In one hand there is a dare to use the majority, in the other.. a crying to all who will listen that if we don’t do something…have rallies, write letters, send in campaign money.. the Democrats will use their majority. It’s insane! They are literally damned  for not using it by the GOP and some of their own and damned  if the think about using it.

So John, what would you have them do? Which ‘evil’ do the Democrats pick?  Do they follow in the last administrations path and issue Executive Orders, recess appointements, signing statements and push through everything the President says to push through no matter the consequence and just hope that the GOP won’t cry about it too much? Do they forget their own values and beliefs and just vote (D) all the way down the ballot like the GOP does and is encouraging, or really, daring them to do? What is your solution to this? When one party refuses to even come to the table don’t they force the other party to act as a single mind? Force the other party to do it all on their own, with their own philosophies?

Maybe the GOP is comfortable using a single-mind, but this is not and has never been the “Democratic” (party or poltical system.) way..

The GOP has blanketed the world with this falsehood that they want bi-partsanship on every issue, and yet just last week when invited to a health care summit, an ‘exachange of ideas’.. quite a few high ranking GOP’ers said they might be willing to come to the table…. just come to the table now, not vote a certain way or concede a certain point,  but they might show up to the President’s bipartisan effort for health reform meeting but only if the  Democrats dropped their health reform idea and adopted the GOP version. Eric Cantor flat out said that the “only way to bipartisan cooperation is if the Democrats fully embrace the GOP plan!” What? How is that bipartisan? How is that anything other than a great big “Screw you, It’s my way or no way and that’s the only bipartisan I agree with.. do it yourself if you don’t like it! Just remember I will blame you for doing it yourself if you do”

You cannot, as the losing party give that kind of demand.. that kind of close-fist demand.. and then claim you are the bipartisan party, yet they do, and no one calls them on it.  So I ask you once again, is this really an OBama failure and where is any ire at the party that is actually holding bipartsianship hostage?

To me President Obama failures are..

He has moved away from a public option. He promised me a public option and I believed him. He has let the message on this and so many other issues get away from him. He had the advantage and he expected to find ‘Statesmen’  and ‘Adults’ in congress who wouldn’t bastardize everything they could to score a political point and while he’s finally decided to come out swingng and get the truth out.. he’s wasted vaulable time and his ‘capitol’ in the interim.

I see it as a failure that he is still giving contracts to the likes of Blackwater and doing it even though we know they are the evil of all evil. Why do we need to privately fund any war with a bunch of mercenaries? Why do we need them for private security? Why can’t we use the money and build up our military and pay our troops more? Atleast they have rules,laws and codes they must follow. Blackwater and the likes do things with our money and in our names that I do not think the majoirty of us want done in our name. I do not agree at all with their continued government funding. Bring the military back to do the jobs in our name with the honor and integrity that they will bring with them.

I see President  Obama’s lack of authority with Wall Street as another failure. He needs to force those CEO’s to either get their sweet-ass to the proverbial ‘come to Jesus’ meeting.. or risk immediate stripping of the ‘handout, even if that means selling off part of the company to get back the money given to them. I don’t know who these people think they are, but when the President of the United States tells you to come to a meeting.. your sorry ‘hand-out-taking’ ass better get there before the ink is dry on the invitations. I don’t care if it was ‘foggy’ or not, take the damn train.

I don’t care about GOP crying that “OBama hates capitalism .. Obama is an enemy to buisness” because it’s  a load of crap, what we had leading up to this meltdown was not capitalism .. it was rape pure and simple. It’s time Obama starts acting like the President he is and do something about these guys.

And finally.. He has failed at installing a new way of doing it, he has failed at starting a new era of bi-partsianship.  He hasn’t failed for the lack of trying, he’s failed for the lack of realism. He believed he could change the climate of hate that is the US congress. Not a single congressman from either house or either party can say or do anything without checking a poll 1st. They are not there to govern like Obama is, they are there for the power and the paycheck. It is President Obama’s failure to not see this that irks me the most. It is his failure to not see that, no matter which way he goes the entire Right side will be against him as proven time and time again, even by adopting their own policies.. they will go against him. They will and have cut off their noses to spite their face.

President Obama is already lambasted as a socialist even when he’s cut taxes and wasn’t the one to create the largest ‘socialist program’ in a generation or more. Well,  if they are going to call him one anyway, then why not use that and go more radical on his ideas. We just proved a lot of the country is pro-radical change, even our supreme court is. So it is a failure on Obama’s part not to use the gift he’s been given by the Right. He will be slaughtered and lied about by them no matter what he does.. so he might as well do as he wants.

John, thank you for your comments.. I hope I have addressed them in a way that maybe didn’t change your mind.. but atleast gave you a different point of view and a way to look at it

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23 responses to “Dear John…

  • Howey

    Kelly. Thank you for addressing John’s misguided response to me.

    I’ll agree, also, that Obama has failed in certain areas. He put his trust in a system that’s become so flawed that nothing can get thanks to the obstructionism of the Republican Party and Democrat pussies.

    I’ve said time and time again over the past three or four months, it’s time for President Obama, and Congress, to take the bull by the horns, and say “Enough!”

    (Among other things) Pass health care reform, with a viable Public Option, through reconciliation, take immediate action to change the greed that’s infected our corporations, restore first amendment rights to the people – not corporations – limit congressional filibustering, reform campaign finance laws to remove lobbyist influence, and stop the discharge of viable, dedicated members of our military who happen to be gay.

  • Howey

    Oh. Be sure to check your email. 🙂

  • geoff

    I’d like to thank that John’s head exploded. The sheer volume of research and thought-out digression should be greeted with, at the very least, acknowledgment. I am sure it will not be.

    Nice post!

  • geoff

    thank… think.

    I would be thankful.

    Especially if there were gravy.

  • ekg

    Thanks Geoff… your acknowledgment alone made it worth the effort. ..

  • Bert Foxx

    Thanks Kelly,
    That was so well thought out and worded that even I understood it. Long but, well worth the read.

  • John D

    Wow, that was quite the post, ekg. I’m flattered that you’d put that much time and effort into answering my comments on your previous post. I’ll have some comments for this one too, but due to time constraints, they’ll have to wait. For now, I’ll just say I’m not ready to join the movement yet. I’ll expand on that later, if you’d like.

    • ekg

      I was happy to reply John, you brought up a couple points that I just can’t see how Obama owns the blame or own all the blame and it got me wondering why we couldn’t see things the same way. So I figured if I laid my case out the way I see it, the way many libs see it.. then maybe .. just maybe it can help explain our position better.

      as said, (and it wasn’t a slam).. Mike is very hard-liner and rarely if ever ‘gives’ anything.. this kind of blog would have been wasted on him.. because I know that no matter how well the case is laid out, he would disregard it all because it can’t be worked into his ideology…but since you are an ‘unknown’.. it was worth writing.. and frankly, I enjoyed laying it all out. It’s rare that I get a chance to ‘play’ with an ‘unknown’ factor.. LOL

      I look forward to your reply.. take your time, I know I put a lot to answer for in the blog.. I’m wordy like that .. HA!

      Big, you’re welcome.. thank you for taking the time to read it 🙂

      Chuck, Howie.. I will get to y’alls reply asap.. I’m pressed for time and I want to give y’all justice… 🙂

  • uselesslegs

    Whether we like it or not, Wall street and the Big corp. Banks are tied into our economic infrastructure. Also like it or not, we can’t just snap our fingers or pass one or several pieces of legislation that will easily untie their interwoven presence in our economy. It will take a step by step process to remove each and every cancerous knot to ensure that we don’t have this fold in on itself (and us) and collapse into a catastrophe.

    I find it funny, that every President, both good and bad, was given their *turn*. And while the American people have never been shy about expecting and often DEMANDING *immediate* results of their POTUS (with the amazing ability to shun the reality of what any POTUS is actually dealing with at that time) none, (with possibly the exception of Lincoln) was WISHED and HOPED to fail. Even at the expense of the American People, and amazingly, WITH THE HOPES of the American people…to fail.

    Abject failure, even at the expense of the country and it’s infrastructure is PREFERRED, as opposed to our healthy recovery. What so fucking terrifies Americans NOW that didn’t and SHOULD HAVE fucking terrified them when the beginning of the cancer was identified, but not treated? Mass deregulation under Regan, against economic advice to the contrary, NAFTA and more deregulation Under Clinton…against economic advice to the contrary, Further deregulation, dipping into social security to pay Big Pharma, uncontrolled spending, no taxes implemented to fund wars under Bush…against economic advice to the contrary. What was the magical tipping point? Where did we suddenly become so fucking fiscally outraged and policy aware? Has it been slowly building concern?

    Nope, can’t be that, because while *some* people were disgruntled, they were never really outraged, until *now*. And don’t tell me they were, because that’s a bucket of lie. They were more upset, rather than at their seeming wits end. Hmmmm, what else could have awoken such passion and concern? When a man, a President, not even a month into office was wished utter and complete failure…on EVERYTHING, what’s to make of that? Get’s ya right here, doesn’t it? That warm, fuzzy feeling…of complete failure.

    It reminds me of when I was growing up and playing Monopoly with a friend and his parents. The youngest brother of my friend, would (he thought slyly) take extra money from the bank. The mom would look towards the dad, every time he pinched a 100 or 500 dollars, and they’d giggle, it was so cute…teehee. But my friend would get the friggin evil eye, if he mentioned his brothers theft.

    That puzzled me, even at 9, because I was always taught theft was theft. That was one of the first times that registered in my being, that making allowances, exceptions, and looking the other way is “OK” based on the individuals perception of who is doing it.

    Clinton spent quite a deal of time and effort to pass gun legislation, but was not met with a quarter of the vitriol, angst, and hate that Obama is seeing on a daily basis. Bush spent like Brewster with almost absolutely no effort to repay those coffers and was met with only the most mild form’s of passive *anger* that any administration has ever seen in recent history.

    Our country has seen worse than our current crisis, much worse, but somehow, ideologies aside, and a few dissenters…we all hoped for the well being of our country…regardless of the (R) or (D) in office. And like it or not, we didn’t purposely try to or HOPE that that (R) or (D) failed. Because that would mean our country failed.

    I think what ticks me off the most, is that the few people who would have body tackled and beat the shit out of the person walking up to the house with a match and gasoline to prevent it’s arson, are the very same people who castigated those few for going to far to try and stop it and instead, reserve there contempt and outrage for the person who arrived on the scene and couldn’t put out the fully engulfed house quick enough.

  • uselesslegs

    “were met with castigation for going to far”…not, “are the very same people who castigated.”

    I hate when my mind gets ahead of itself, oi.

  • Howey

    Sweetie…I nevah get justice!

    btw – Where’s lilCheney been? Memorial service for the right’s new hero? Teabaggers convention? CPAC?

  • lil mike

    Aww… Howey, you missed me?

    I’ve been really busy the past few days dealing with my Hollywood leftie correspondent (who has gone off the deep end) and had a cheerleader competition today. First place, thanks for asking.

    Although the gist of this post was aimed to John, not me, I just couldn’t help but notice that ekg is now endorsing TARP, something that she has tried to have it both ways on since it’s inception.

    As she says, I can’t run a computer model of the economy to prove that we would have been better off without either the stimulus or TARP, but she somehow takes that as an endorsement of the effectiveness of the Stimulus and TARP! If I can’t prove that the Stimulus/TARP is a failure, than by default it’s a success? That’s wacky even by left-logic.

    However the President takes credit for the stimulus averting a slide into a depression. I don’t even follow the logic for that one. I could understand the argument if he were making it for TARP (although I disagree with it) but there was nothing in the stimulus that would make any difference in stabilizing financial institutions or markets.

    But assuming it was true, and the stimulus did save us from a depression, then why not stop at the 290 or so billion dollars that we’ve spend so far and not spend the other 500 billion of the stimulus; money that we don’t have? In fact, since the financial markets seem to stabilize in the Feb-March timeframe last year, it seems that we only needed to spend however much Stimulus money we spent up to March 2009. How much was that, just a few billion? Wow, what a bargain!

    Also, you have a weird view of bipartisanship. The President’s starting point is the Senate Health bill. So instead of having no preconditions, the President insists the starting point is his own bill. Well if that’s the case, where is the bipartisanship in that? If you can’t get Snow and Collins to sign off on it (Two Republican senators who would love to buck their party and vote on this) then it’s clear it’s too far left for most of the country, which although you don’t believe it, still seems to be a center-right country. It seems instead of trying to put together a few items that are popular on both sides of the aisle and have a true bipartisan bill, The President is looking to peel maybe one Republican to vote for his bill. Some bipartisanship. Maybe another Nebraska like bribe for Maine?

    Well I could go on, but with me being so “hard-line” what’s the point?

  • Howey

    What’s the need for bipartisanship when only one sides willing to talk?

    Don’t worry about your two RHINO’s. I can pretty much guarantee health care reform – with a public option – will be passed. Through reconciliation.

    Who can you thank for that, Mike?

    The Republican Party of No.

  • ekg

    If I can’t prove that the Stimulus/TARP is a failure, than by default it’s a success? That’s wacky even by left-logic.

    Odd that right-wing logic that says we would have been better off even tho you can’t prove it isn’t wacky tho isn’t it?

    you just have no objectivity.. or provable argument for that matter.. you can’t prove it would haven’t worked and you can’t prove it didn’t..and worst of all, Obama did stop the slide and you can’t stand it ..it’s no wonder you are spinning off into Beck-land.. it’s like that robot flailing around screaming “It does not compute”.. ssnniffffff.. yep, I smell the smoke

    ekg isn’t endorsing TARP in the least.. but, like the invasion of Iraq that I also didn’t endorse, we’re in it so I support those who are fighting.. Tarp is the same thing, no one had a better idea at the time, you can’t prove your way would have worked better, but it’s your way so of course you know better than all the economists out there… your ego aside, whether for it or against it I never wished it to fail.. like some did… and I am glad that it worked, unlike some who aren’t..and I never lied about it working, like you and your entire party is doing with TARP…. It is funny how the GOP will tell their local TV news how many jobs TARP saved or created.. but when they stand on the white house lawn they lie..

    but, they have no moral code.. or sense of.. well truth.. so *shrug*

    one thing I can say.. I never once wanted my country to fail.. I never wanted the Iraq war to fail to make Bush look bad, I didn’t think the surge was a great idea but I never wished failure on Bush for it.. Chuck is right when he says that the GOP wished for Obama to fail and then did everything the could to make sure he did.. and they did it at the cost of American lives..

    and you cheer them on… you should be ashamed, but you enjoy it too much when a Dem fails.. even if that means the country slides into depression or back to some “Mad-Max barter system”..oh well, too bad for you it didn’t fail.. you only have to look at the GOP senators/governors who took money and praise ths job creations/savings..

    I mean, I guess you needed Obama and everything he tries to fail to take teh stench off the 8 years your GOP congress, pretty much the same congress right now.. turned Socialist and such HUGE money spenders.. oh well, sorry you didn’t get want you wanted.. but I’m sorta glad because barter systems can really suck. ..

    ~
    There is already a house bill and a senate bill.. the GOP was involved in those and backed out.. too bad, now the only choice they have are the bills that are already formed and awaiting tweaking.. to start over? why.. you lost, suck it up.. you can’t get 100% of everything because your party was not picked to run the country.. that means you don’t get to make demands like “get rid of the bi-partsan bill you already spent months workng on.. and adopt our plan totally”

    The fact that you think that kind of demand is a bi-partisan demand makes you really no better than Beck, Ice or Palin.. so I was right, thank you for proving it.. there is no point in even replying to you any longer..

    except to catch you guys in anouther GOP lie.. or hypocrisy if you’d rather…

    what uhh.. happened to all that blather about how dangerous it is for a President to allow preconditions before he sits and talks..?

    that’s what I thought.. you never expected your GOP would be the ones with the precondition or ultimatum really.. well look at it this way, Obama listened to y’alls recommendation..

    Sorry John, I can no longer talk to Mike because even when my side is laid out in minutia he either ignores it or makes stuff up but never answers or addresses anyone’s (mine’s,Uselesslegs,Howie) point….he just throws ridiculousness out there to attack, he can’t argue his points or even refute ours.. he can only do that “LOL” and “eyeroll” stuff I mentioned in the blog to you.. but yes, and I’m compelled to reply when he does it anyway….
    whaddayagonnado?

  • lil mike

    “Odd that right-wing logic that says we would have been better off even tho you can’t prove it isn’t wacky tho isn’t it?
    you just have no objectivity.. or provable argument for that matter.. you can’t prove it would haven’t worked and you can’t prove it didn’t..and worst of all, Obama did stop the slide and you can’t stand it ..it’s no wonder you are spinning off into Beck-land.. it’s like that robot flailing around screaming “It does not compute”.. ssnniffffff.. yep, I smell the smoke”

    One of the problems with debating you is that you just pick out what you can attack and ignore the rest. It’s almost as if you were not really interested in a search for truth, like me, and just wanted to score points. But the way for you to score points is… to ignore what I said. The problem is you leave the best stuff behind! For example:

    “But assuming it was true, and the stimulus did save us from a depression, then why not stop at the 290 or so billion dollars that we’ve spend so far and not spend the other 500 billion of the stimulus; money that we don’t have? In fact, since the financial markets seem to stabilize in the Feb-March timeframe last year, it seems that we only needed to spend however much Stimulus money we spent up to March 2009. How much was that, just a few billion?”

    If as you contend, that the Stimulus saved us from sliding into a depression, then wasn’t the work completed about 11 months ago? And of the stimulus funds, how much was spent by that point? Just a couple of billion. So… what’s the justification of continuing accumulate massive deficits if Obama has already saved us?

    If “Obama stopped the slide,” then what is the justification for further stimulus? Jobs done right? We’ve achieved harmonic convergence?

    I think the trick is, you can’t prove that Obama stopped us from sliding in a depression because even with the self admitted limited knowledge of economics that you possess, you know the stimulus was just not spending very much when the financial markets stabilized. Of course, I’ve already told you on previous posts what really did stabilize the markets, and if you want Obama to have credit for that, sure, although I doubt he even knows about it.

    Oh and this cracked me up: “ekg isn’t endorsing TARP in the least.. but, like the invasion of Iraq that I also didn’t endorse, we’re in it so I support those who are fighting..”

    Uh… your position on Iraq was not “we’re in it so I support those who are fighting.” It was, get out now, I don’t care what happens. I see now you are pulling a Biden on Iraq though. No wonder you supported his crazed statements.

    But the real issue here is TARP. To say no one had a better idea at the time is ridiculous. I had a better idea, and it was one that later worked. So I you seem like you want to have it both ways. You were against TARP before you were for it?

    “..and I never lied about it working, like you and your entire party is doing with TARP…. It is funny how the GOP will tell their local TV news how many jobs TARP saved or created.. but when they stand on the white house lawn they lie..”

    Uh… what are you talking about?

    “one thing I can say.. I never once wanted my country to fail.. I never wanted the Iraq war to fail to make Bush look bad, I didn’t think the surge was a great idea but I never wished failure on Bush for it..”

    John has not been reading your posts for years like I have, so he may not know all the multiple times you’ve posted on that issue over the years, but frankly this is a lie. I’m a little disappointed that you are not sticking to your guns. You not only declared Iraq a failure multiple times over the course of years, but demanded it be a failure and wanted our troops to pull out immediately. You had, and still have no clear idea of the catastrophic consequences if your foreign policy was followed. Luckily for you, cooler heads prevailed.

    As for the health bill… well if you are delusional enough to think that Scott Brown’s election in Massachusetts was a call for the Public Option, than it’s hard to trust your judgment on … well anything that you’ve written about health care. Don’t worry, the President intends to make sure that we get his health care, good and hard. Even with the majority of the public opposed to it.

    You know, I miss the old ekg who could actually argue on the merits, instead of reducing her back and forth to ad hominem attacks. Why don’t you go back to that? Instead of spending so much time attacking me, attack my arguments logically. It would be like old times.

  • Howey

    “One of the problems with debating you is that you just pick out what you can attack and ignore the rest.”

    HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHHAHA!

    You’re right, ekg. You hit the proverbial nail right on the head in your email.

  • ekg

    stop lying Mike, you’re no good at it.. can’t you tell how bad you’ve gotten in all this trying to make fantasy into reality? can’t you tell what you’ve done to your credibility, not too mention our friendship?

    How many lies will you have to spread before it eats you up even more inside? You were too good of a guy to be able to keep that kind of tactic up.. and it’s taking it toll..

    I said I never wanted the Iraq war, of course that would mean I would want the troops pulled out.. ummm Duh! But I never hoped they would fail, I never hoped Bush would fail with his decision.. I always cared about what happened to the ones he sent and go fuck yourself for lying that I didn’t care what happened..

    I’ve never wished this country to fail…

    wait..

    oh yeah.. I remember..

    I was against the surge, to you that means I want those soldiers to die.. so Bush could fail..
    I didn’t like torture,wiretaps,searches,indefinite holds,truly nolen being contracted out be LE to search the homes they were in..stuff like that… so of course to you that equals I want the country to fail. you tho, well you are the eminent patriot American who wants the Gov’t to intrude as far as they can, throw out every law they need to.. and violate every part of the constitution as long as you feel safe..

    it kinda boggles the mind..

    you’re like one of those women who kill their children to save them from the evils of the world.. well, she’s right.. it did make them safe from the things in this would that could harm them.. you’d do the same, you’ll kill everything this country is supposed to be to feeel safe.. sorry, this time I default to freedom.. and you default to massive government control.. I cannot understand the notion that you don’t trust gov’t for healthcare.. but you give them all the rights they want or need to invade the personal lives of it’s citizens..

    I dont have to look at Scott Brown on the P/O.. every poll has been consistently high on the P/O.. the delusion is yours to refuse to see those polls.. but maybe you should look at the Brown Polls

    QUESTION: Would you favor or oppose the national government offering everyone the choice of a government administered health insurance plan — something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get — that would compete with private health insurance plans?
    ALL 82%
    DEMOCRATS 89%
    REPUBLICANS 68%
    INDEPENDENTS 83%

    http://act.boldprogressives.org/cms/sign/mapollresults/?source=dkos

    Yo’ure right tho.. the Dems should listen and “Rahm’ that bitch in.. the public has spoken.. and keeps on speaking.. it doesn’t want the bill we have now, it wants the P/O … why are you so against democracy Mike? and since you are, what kind of system do you want? a monarchy, where the GOP are Kings who rule all? hell, the last time they did, which wasn’t very long ago, theye fucked the world up.. not just the US, but the actual world.. so now you lie about what the country wants to get your way? well, whatever works for you I guess.. but it is a lie, we do and have wanted the P/O

    dec 2009
    * Believe in public option: 59.9 percent yes, 40.1 percent no.
    * 86 percent of Democrats support the public option versus 57 percent of Independents and 33 percent of Republicans.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B20OL20091203

    August 2009
    A new study by SurveyUSA puts support for a public option at a robust 77 percent
    http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5ba17aa2-f1b9-4445-a6b8-62b9d1ba8693

    Feb 2010
    * * A February 17-18 Newsweek poll found that 50 percent of respondents supported “[c]reating a government-administered public health insurance option to compete with private plans,”

    but I’m the delusional one?

    well, atleast I back my opinion up..

    It’s hilarious to see your ego is still floating around unchecked..

    But the real issue here is TARP. To say no one had a better idea at the time is ridiculous. I had a better idea,

    offffff course you did.. you always do and the funny thing is, you never allow anyone else to have an idea, never. Well you never prove your ideas are better or right anymore either so..why should you allow anyone else to have an opinion..

    well I’ve asked you over and over to prove you would have been right.. I guess that’s not a part of your plan tho.. you just want to say you’re right and have everyone believe you..

    as for the GOP lie that the stim didn’t work.. how do you figure? Hell, it worked in your own state, and your GOP governor says than anyone (that would be you) saying it didn’t is simply wrong..

    Florida Governor Charlie Crist says Republicans who say the stimulus has not created jobs are simply wrong.

    “That’s not the case in Florida,” he said speaking after the National Governors Association meeting at the White House, “It created or maintained at least 87,000 jobs, 27,000 of those jobs are educators and teachers throughout our state. I dare say what impact the would have on the students if those teachers were out of work, unable to put bread on the table for their families.”
    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/02/fl-gov-charlie-crist-stimulus-did-create-jobs.html

    Arnold says it worked

    Arnold Schwarzenegger, California’s Republican governor, defended Democratic President Barack Obama’s stimulus plan on Sunday, saying 150,000 new jobs were created in his state thanks to the legislation.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2114915920100221?type=marketsNews

    Haley Barbour says it working in creating jobs
    Governor Haley Barbour announced today that Mississippi has received a $20 million federal grant that will help fund railroad improvements from the Port of Gulfport to Hattiesburg, a major step for the Mississippi economy.

    “I personally thank Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and the Obama Administration for giving favorable consideration to and recognizing the importance of the Gulf ports, such as the Port of Gulfport, to international commerce. Once the Panama Canal’s expansion is completed and open to shipping, our Gulf ports will fill a vital need if we have sufficient intermodal surface transportation. This grant is a big step in that direction,” Governor Barbour said.
    http://www.governorbarbour.com/news/2010/feb/2.17.10federalrailroadgrant.html

    even Cantor can’t deny it.. well not if he wants to tell the truuth, but he, like you doesn’t want to tell the truth

    Nearly half of the 30 organizations participating in a job fair Cantor is holding Monday in Culpeper were recipients of the stimulus.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/virginiapolitics/2009/11/for_months_democrats_have_dubb.html?wprss=virginiapolitics

    want more proof that we needed it, still need it and it worked? ok

    President Obama’s stimulus package saved jobs — but the government still needs to do more to breathe life into the economy, according to USA TODAY’s quarterly survey of 50 economists.

    Unemployment would have hit 10.8% — higher than December’s 10% rate — without Obama’s $787 billion stimulus program, according to the economists’ median estimate. The difference would translate into another 1.2 million lost jobs.
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-01-25-usa-today-economic-survey-obama-stimulus_N.htm

    as to why it hasn’t all been spent yet? are you serious? HAHA that’s your argument for proof that it didn’t help? Holy shit, thats scraping the barrel isn’t it?

    well ok, I’ll try and explain it..

    see, some has been used in the form of tax cuts, shoring up unemployment,medicaid, and food stamps..some has been given to states to shore up budget problems, ya know to keep the cops,firemen, teachers.. etc working…some is still waiting to be spent… some has been given to GOP senators and Governors to save/create jobs in their districts, some has gone to Dems for same reason.. the result of this “well the only spent 1/2” is 6% growth instead of 6% retraction.. I know I know, you only consider the 6% retraction as true so that way you can pretend the stim didn’t help.. but the rest of the world lives outside of Mike’s head..

    How fucking crazy that you would go batshit that all the money isn’t spent yet because is being taken to make sure it’s going to valid proposals and ya know, because it was meant to be spent all at once… but scream that TARP went thru too fast… Jesus Christ Mike, atleast try and hide the hypocrisy a little huh.

    besides that, you must have missed a talking point.. because Boehner was just ranting a that all the money was spent already..

    : “You can’t spend $800 billion of taxpayer money and not create jobs when you say that’s what the goal was.”

    so who is lying.. you or him?

    but to answer your question as to why it hasn’t all been spent…

    As was planned from the start, in fact, only a small portion of the $787 billion has been spent. The Council of Economic Advisers recently issued a comprehensive report on the impact of the stimulus. “As of the end of August, $151.4 billion of the original $787 billion has been outlaid or has gone to American taxpayers and businesses in the form of tax reductions,” the CEA reports. That’s 19 percent. If projections made for September expenditures are right, “between one-fifth and one-quarter of the total $787 billion” was spent by the beginning of October.

    This is not surprising. The ARRA is divided into six different types of components, from tax cuts to infrastructure investments. Some can be done quickly (cutting and mailing tax rebate checks) while others (building bridges) take longer. “The areas where stimulus has been largest in the first six months are individual tax cuts, state fiscal relief, and aid to those most directly hurt by the recession,” the CEA reported. Through the end of August, in fact, tax cuts accounted for $62.6 billion of expenditures, and government investment outlays accounted for only $16.5 billion.

    In other words, nearly eight months after its passage, a large majority of the stimulus has yet to start impacting the economy—as was the plan. And as was also the plan, the most visible parts of the stimulus are only taking effect now and will remain active through 2010. As you drive around town, it’s difficult to visualize tax rebates or aid to states—the fast-acting components of the stimulus. But as I drive around my town today, I can see workers laboring at a $4 million, stimulus-backed road project that is just getting started and will run through the spring of 2011.

    the best nugget?

    Of course, the debate over whether the stimulus worked will ultimately be settled in 2012—as voters go to the polls and economists crunch the 2011 data. Until then, we should avoid jumping to rash conclusions.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/217358

    Ok, I know it’s not Glen Beck.. or Malkin.. but as I said, I don’t buy into your religion so I need real facts.. and newsweek does that for me.. so I’m sorry, they trump your “I know I’m right because I know I’m right”

    only part of it is spent and look how much good it has done for so many states and so many people…I have proven over and over just in this comment alone that the stim, with a little that’s come out so far, has done great things..how do you deny that which is proven to you? besides just ignoring it and asking another ridiculous question…

    did you forget how to research the opinions you read? or do you just take every statement out of a blogger,hack and politicians mouth now as gospel if it proves your argument..

    No one ever said we’d be out of this collapse in a month or two.. or even in a year.. but we are on more stable footing, we are doing better than we were when your GOP lead things.. just because that fact bothers you doesn’t mean it’s not true… this shit takes time to fix and it is being fixed.. get over your hate that a Dem is doing it.. or at the very least, stop lying about it..

    now, do ever plan on addressing Chuck in this blog or the last one? do you ever plan on addressing facts given or do you just plan on ignoring them and making up your own reality while repeatedly parroting your own questions as some kind of reply? you are given answers to your questions and yet you never reciprocate.. I don’t believe I answered any of your questions with just questions and stuff I just made up, I believe I answered you… with facts and used links to back them up…. if you cannot play by these rules like an adult, then please just stop replying..

  • lil mike

    “stop lying Mike, you’re no good at it.. can’t you tell how bad you’ve gotten in all this trying to make fantasy into reality? can’t you tell what you’ve done to your credibility, not too mention our friendship?
    How many lies will you have to spread before it eats you up even more inside? You were too good of a guy to be able to keep that kind of tactic up.. and it’s taking it toll… “

    Actually, I am really sorry that you both feel my credibility and our friendship have taken a hit because of my comments. I suspect you see me as changing, but from my perspective it’s you who have changed. Ever since you started getting your news from TMP and ThinkProgress instead of regular papers you have drifted further and further to the left. I know your in your view you regard yourself as just a moderate Democrat, but if you ever were one you’ve left those days long behind. Bad influences I suspect!
    Our friendship is constantly at risk considering our primary interaction is arguing with each other. Naturally, sometimes we may inadvertently go over “the line.” But I think we’ve learned that we have an obligation to inform the other specifically when we’ve done that. If you feel I’ve, “crossed a line” than let me know in what way.

    Since you tend to use words rather deliberately, by saying I’m lying you are not just saying I’m putting out inaccurate information, you seem to think that I intend to deceive. Obviously I disagree. If you are going to make deliberative accusations like that, couldn’t you at least have the courtesy to be specific as to what exactly I’ve “lied” about?

    “I said I never wanted the Iraq war, of course that would mean I would want the troops pulled out.. ummm Duh! But I never hoped they would fail, I never hoped Bush would fail with his decision.. I always cared about what happened to the ones he sent and go fuck yourself for lying that I didn’t care what happened..”

    “I was against the surge, to you that means I want those soldiers to die.. so Bush could fail.. I was against the surge, to you that means I want those soldiers to die.. so Bush could fail..”

    See, you are reaching and looking for a way to be insulted. I never said you wanted soldiers to die (that appellation belongs to someone else). But you forget what our primary disagreement was. I too, didn’t want the invasion, but I recognized that it was a situation in which we were in for a penny, in for a pound. We needed to stay to restore Iraq to stability, and yes, to kill terrorists who were flooding into the country. Because I wanted the mission to succeed, I supported the surge and wanted it to succeed. You? You opposed the mission in the first place. I had posted this on the muche from time to time, but you can’t say you support the troops if you want their mission to fail, and you clearly did. Honestly I’ve never understood how people could say they “support the troops” but oppose everything that they are working so hard and risking their lives for. You wanted to pull troops out right away, regardless of the consequences. I just don’t see that as support.

    Why you want to discuss this old topic here I don’t know.

    As for your Public Option polls, I see them, and I’m not challenging them. However, if those polls told the full story, why wouldn’t the dems just dump their current monstrosity and just have a single payer? If it’s so much more popular than the current dem health bill, that would seem to be easier politically. It’s not because they’re cowards. If your polls are correct the easy thing to do is go single payer. So there is something else at work to cause democrats to choose the least popular path to health reform. I don’t have an answer to that other than the dem politicos don’t’ believe your polls. But I’m pretty sure that your opinion that the Scott Brown victory was a signal that the American people want the public option is just plain wrong.

    I appreciate all the research you did in pulling up all of those articles on the stimulus, but it is an excellent example of why we argue past each other so often. My argument was that the President’s contention that the stimulus pulled us out of a depression was wrong. Instead of addressing that, you went off on a tangent of Governors and political types praising the stimulus because they got fat cash. You didn’t address what I was talking about at all.

    I didn’t argue that the stimulus didn’t create jobs (although not hundreds of billions of dollars of jobs), but it didn’t keep us out of a depression or stimulate the economy, which supposedly was the primary purpose of the stimulus. The Sentinel had a good article last week on what happened to Florida’s stimulus money.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/os-florida-stimulus-spending,0,3672822.story

    “What’s more, the money created or saved just 34,966 jobs. The bulk of them — 30,647 full-time jobs — were credited to the $5.5 billion of stimulus dollars administered by state government. But all but about 5,000 of them were teachers, counselors and other public-school employees targeted for layoffs.

    Meanwhile, Florida’s work force lost nearly 1.1 million jobs in 2009 — and the unemployment rate increased from 9.4 percent to 11.8 percent.”

    So yes, the State got lots of money that saved many state employees their jobs, and thereby bailing out mismanaged States and saving them from the consequences of their own shortsightedness. Of course Governors are happy! Free Money!

    But is the economy stimulated?

    As to your “best nugget:”

    “Of course, the debate over whether the stimulus worked will ultimately be settled in 2012—as voters go to the polls and economists crunch the 2011 data. Until then, we should avoid jumping to rash conclusions.”


    Odd you would pick this as your “best nugget” since it basically says that it’s too soon to determine the effect of the stimulus, when your argument has been that the stimulus “worked.

    It looks to me that the constituencies that the Administration favored got goodies, which is just as I had said last year when we were arguing about the stimulus. This was a grab bag of goodies for Democratic constituencies.

    As to addressing Chuck, I didn’t see his comment as directed at me, so I’m not sure what you are expecting me to say. I didn’t get the impression that he expected me to respond.

    In the meantime, given that you totally ignored what I said on the stimulus to conduct your own rant on it; how can you say I’m ignoring your facts? You are guilty of what you accuse me of doing so it’s hard to track your stream of consciousness when it veers off on totally different tangents. What “facts” do you want me to address that I haven’t already? And will you ever address what I’ve asked, or will you just use it as a jumping off point to another rant?

  • ekg

    Ever since you started getting your news from TMP and ThinkProgress instead of regular papers you have drifted further and further to the left.

    wrong again..

    I use all papers.. I don’t just use one, If I see a story on TPM I find it somewhere else to verify it, and I make sure there is a link back to another traditional source whatever I use a non traditional MSM link whenever I can..

    I don’t even read TPM or ThinkPro.. but when I do a search on something, if they pop up with it, and it’s a better piece, I use it.. and that has never changed.. it’s the way I’ve always done things..

    but I recognized that it was a situation in which we were in for a penny, in for a pound. We needed to stay to restore Iraq to stability, and yes, to kill terrorists who were flooding into the country. Because I wanted the mission to succeed, I supported the surge and wanted it to succeed. You? You opposed the mission in the first place. I had posted this on the muche from time to time, but you can’t say you support the troops if you want their mission to fail, and you clearly did.

    you are full of shit.

    wanting their ‘mission’ to fail? no Mike, that’s more crap.. why don’t you try, wanting them to come home.. end of story.. no other meaning, just a simple, I don’t agree with this war, this war is wrong, this war is unjust, hurry and get them home….that’s what it means to not want to go to war.. it doesn’t mean I want their mission to fail, it means I want them to come home.. Not wanting the surge to happen, is not the same as not supporting it and them when it did and I don’t care how many ways you try and make it the same.

    I love how you can be all against the war and still support the troops, but me? Nah, I say the same thing and somehow I don’t support their mission so in essence I wish them failure.. that’s simply insane and untrue..

    I’m sorry the friendship is damaged and altered also.. and no, we could have gone on for another 10 years but you’ve changed so much your unrecognizable.. you argue just to argue, you make things up, you dodge questions.. you are unbend-able … it’s become a religion for you..like if you find fault with a grain of something, then the rest must be wrong and fail with that single grain… well, that’s on you.. I can find fault with my party,president and opions and do it all the time and it doesn’t dimish them or me at all, in fact it makes them and me better for it… anyway, along with your new religion, you’ve started this demand of all answers to every question that you gave as some kind of answer to something I asked you and it’s old… I played by your new rules for awhile.. I’m not anymore.

    you have in essence hung around too much with the likes of Iceman and Gordo and become a combination of them both..

  • north carolina insurance

    I hope the Dems lose the house in November. I don’t hate them or anything i just think that government works best when both parties have some power. In my lifetime I think the Government was working best during Reagans and Clintons presidencies and were at its worst during Obamas and Bush II’s.When one party controls everything it seems like its most corrupt and usually the other party sells its soul to the Devil to get back in power.

  • ekg

    normally I’d agree.. but this GOP is a whole new kind of animal. They have proven that no matter what the issue, no matter how popular the issue, no matter how beneficial the issue, no matter what.. they will shut this country down instead of doing a single drop of governing..

    I’ve never been an advocate of just voting all one party straight down the ballot..but since I know that the GOP is.. I’m about to be..

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